I totaly agree with Eloy when he says :
1)" this discussion should not go on indefinitely here on the list"!
2) I agree with him and with a lot of other members that Stevan has done a
FANTASTIC work!
3) I agree that it is amazing to see how this discussion has started and
where it conducts us!
4) I agree with him that the request of standardization of a forum and of a
posting style is a form of censorship.
6) I am not sure that a vote is necessary . In France, we say : "Les plus
gênés s'en vont" . I will try to translate. Sorry if it sounds strangely :"
The more bothered leave". Since 10 years, a lot of members have left the
list for different reasons without a noise but this list during this time
has gained 1000 members .
Hélène Bosc
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eloy Rodrigues" <eloy_at_SDUM.UMINHO.PT>
To: <AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Call for a vote of nonconfidence in the moderator of the AmSci
Forum
I think this discussion should not go on indefinitely here on the list!
There are two separate issues, that are being mixed and confused here.
1 - Stevan's position as moderator
2 - Stevan's style as poster
Regarding the first, I think one should ask himself if Stevan has done
something wrong on his role as moderator (and if he has done it recently for
all this "fuss" now). As he censored, or had any other action limiting the
diffusion, of any legitimate message about OA sent to the list?
Despite some previous claims, afterwards denied, I think the answer is NO.
So, I think Stevan has been doing a great job keeping the list "on topic",
I'm thankful for all the work and time he invests on moderating the list,
and I'm really amazed with all this thread of discussion (started by
unfunded claims of censorship).
But as it started, I agree with the call for a vote, but "of list"
Regarding the second point, I think no one should "censor" or impose a style
on the postings of other members of the list (provided that they respect
basic rules of social behavior). In my opinion that would really constitute
censorship. But it's only my opinion!
But if there a members thinking that we should have a "manual of posting
style" for the list, please write it, and propose it to the list and we can
vote it, again "of list" (I would be really curious, to see the proposed
"borders" of what would be admissible or not admissible regarding the reply
and comment of other postings- could I cite/comment an expression, a
phrase, a paragraph?).
As long as we don't have a "Manual of posting style" approved, I don't think
no one (not even many voices) can impose a limitation on the freedom of
expression of any member of the list!
Eloy Rodrigues
Universidade do Minho - Serviços de Documentação
Campus de Gualtar - 4710 - 057 Braga
Telefone: + 351 253604150; Fax: + 351 253604159
Campus de Azurém - 4800 - 058 Guimarães
Telefone: + 351 253510168; Fax: + 351 253510117
-----Original Message-----
From: American Scientist Open Access Forum
[mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG] On
Behalf Of Sally Morris (Morris Associates)
Sent: terça-feira, 7 de Outubro de 2008 14:10
To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
Subject: Re: Call for a vote of nonconfidence in the moderator of the AmSci
Forum
We could try having a different moderator, freeing Stevan to post, and to
respond to others' postings (preferably, as several respondents have
indicated, in a concise self-contained message, rather than interpolated
into the original or a summary thereof) without any ambiguity as to his
standing vis-à-vis other list members.
Then we could see whether list members find it better, worse, or no
different
I for one would nominate Charles Oppenheim, if he's willing to take on the
role
Sally
Sally Morris
Consultant, Morris Associates (Publishing Consultancy)
South House, The Street
Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex BN13 3UU, UK
Tel: +44(0)1903 871286
Fax: +44(0)8701 202806
Email: sally_at_morris-assocs.demon.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: American Scientist Open Access Forum
[mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG] On
Behalf Of Stevan Harnad
Sent: 07 October 2008 13:37
To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
Subject: Call for a vote of nonconfidence in the moderator of the AmSci
Forum
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:37 AM, C.Oppenheim_at_lboro.ac.uk
<C.Oppenheim_at_lboro.ac.uk> wrote:
> I totally support Jean-Claude's view.
I can only repeat what I said before:
(1) I am happy to put an end to my 10-year moderatorship of the
American Scientist Open Access Forum and hand it over to someone else
who is willing to do it, but only if it is requested by a plurality of
the membership, not if it is merely requested by a few dissatisfied
members.
(2) The moderator's role is to filter postings, approving the relevant
ones, and rejecting the off-topic or ad-hominem ones.
(3) Apart from that, the moderator has no special status or authority
(other than what may accrue from the substance of his postings), and
may post *exactly* as any other poster may post, including the posting
of quotes, comments, critiques, elaborations, rebuttals *and
summaries*.
By my count, there have not been many votes one way or the other, but
of the few votes there have been, more seem to be expressing
confidence in my moderatorship than those that are calling for me to
be replaced.
I have also been accused of of censorship, by both Jean-Claude and
Sally, the charge being subsequently rescinded. If there are doubts
about whether I can be trusted to post or tally the votes -- or, more
important, if we are to spare the Forum the bandwidth of votes
appearing instead of OA substance -- I am also quite happy to direct
the votes to be sent to a trusted 3rd party for tallying, if that is
the wish of the Forum.
Stevan Harnad
>
> Charles
>
>
> Professor Charles Oppenheim
> Head
> Department of Information Science
> Loughborough University
> Loughborough
> Leics LE11 3TU
>
> Tel 01509-223065
> Fax 01509 223053
> e mail c.oppenheim_at_lboro.ac.uk
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: American Scientist Open Access Forum
> [mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG] On
> Behalf Of Jean-Claude Guédon
> Sent: 06 October 2008 19:00
> To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
> Subject: Re: American Scientist Open Access Forum settings
>
> What I note is that my messages sometimes appear back very late and I
wonder
> why. It is this detail which caused my recent angry reaction.
>
> While we are on technical matters, I would appreciate two things from this
> moderator/actor:
>
> 1. That he should refrain from ever summarizing somebody's words. We are
all
> versed enough in the art of reading to be able to survive without this
> doubtful form of help. Besides, list moderators are not mentors or
paternal
> figures. When the summary ends up distorting the original message, it
> becomes reprehensible;
>
> 2. Since the moderator also intervenes as member in this list, he should
> make clear which of his interventions are moderating interventions and
which
> ones are participations in discussions. In the latter case, summaries
should
> be avoided.
>
> I realize that Peter Suber manages a blog and not a list, but I really
like
> the way in which he carefully delineates the pieces of news he wants to
> convey, and how he announces his own comments. This is a very good model
to
> follow. I would also add that Peter Suber refrains from using judgements
and
> terms that occasionally raise the ire of readers such as me. When I read a
> sentence such as "Many silly, mindless things have been standing in the
way
> of the optimal and inevitable" (Sept 28), I ask myself if the silly, and
> mindless characterizations belong to this context. I also wonder whether
> the "optimal and inevitable" are objective, neutral terms. On Sept. 30th,
in
> answering to me, Stevan made free to add: "What on earth does this mean?".
> Was that useful? In short, Stevan acts as if there was one truth, one
> defender of this truth (himself). The list is "his" list and, on it, he
can
> berate people at will (What on earth does this mean?). And then if you
> resist and respond with a few equivalents to "What on earth... etc.", then
> you are accused of flaming, being vituperative, or whatever.
>
> I wonder how the same individual, at will and arbitrarily, can assume the
> trappings of a moderator or a debate without even making sure that people
> know which role is at work. It troubles me and, I assume, it should
trouble
> many people.
>
> This said, Stevan has also done excellent work in setting up this list and
> maintaining it. This too should be recognized openly and loudly. But there
> is room for improvement.
>
> Jean-Claude Guédon
>
> PS I will not come back on this point. I leave the floor to Stevan or any
> other person willing to defend his present position as both actor and
> moderator.
>
> Le lundi 06 octobre 2008 à 13:23 -0400, Stevan Harnad a écrit :
>
> Whether you do or do not receive copies of your own postings depends
> on the setting you chose when you signed onto the American Scientist
> Open Access Forum. I have checked Leslie's, Sally's and Jean-Claude's
> settings. I note that both Leslie's and Sally's were set to "No
> acknowledgements [NOACK NOREPRO]" -- the listserv's default option. I
> have now changed them both to "Receive copy of own postings [NOACK
> REPRO]". Jean-Claude's setting was already "Receive copy of own
> postings [NOACK REPRO]".
>
> If you are not receiving copies of your own postings, you can modify
> your settings at
>
http://listserver.sigmaxi.org/sc/wa.exe?SUBED1=american-scientist-open-acces
s-forum&A=1
>
> Stevan Harnad
> Moderator
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:29:09 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: RE: Jean-Claude
> =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gu=E9don_is_wrong=2C_and_so_is_Zinath_Rehana?=
> From: "Leslie Chan" <chan_at_utsc.utoronto.ca>
> To: "American Scientist Open Access Forum"
> <AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG>
>
> This has been a source of confusion for me in the past. It appears that
> the listserv software is setup in such a way that the senders do not
> receive a copy of his or her own postings. Is this the case, Stevan, and
> can this be changed to avoid future confusion?
>
> Leslie
>
> > Apologies - I have no idea why my own original posting on the matter
di=
> d
> > not
> > appear on my own computer
> >
> > Sally
> >
> >
> > Sally Morris
> > Consultant, Morris Associates (Publishing Consultancy)
> > South House, The Street
> > Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex BN13 3UU, UK
> > Tel: +44(0)1903 871286
> > Fax: +44(0)8701 202806
> > Email: sally_at_morris-assocs.demon.co.uk
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Scientist Open Access Forum
> > [mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG] On
> > Behalf Of Stevan Harnad
> > Sent: 06 October 2008 15:08
> > To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Jean-Claude Gu=E9don is wrong, and so is Zinath Rehana
> >
> > On 10/6/08, Sally Morris (Morris Associates)
> > <sally_at_morris-assocs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> List readers will have seen the positive comments on Stevan's
moderati=
> on
> > of
> >> the list
> >>
> >> I am worried, however, about whether negative comments are being
> >> censored.
> >> Mine was
> >
> > May I suggest that before resorting to accusations of censorship, as
> > Jean-Claude Guedon did, you consult the American Scientist Open Access
> > Forum's archive
> >
http://amsci-forum.amsci.org/archives/American-Scientist-Open-Access-Fo=
> rum.h
> > tml
> > where you will see, as Jean-Claude did, that all your postings have
> > appeared. Nothing has been rejected except another inappropriate
> > posting by Zinath Rehana.
> >
> > Please distinguish the fact that I am often critical of your postings
> > in my postings (as you often are of mine) from the question of whether
> > or not they appear. They all appear, and when I do a critique, just as
> > when you do a critique, I am merely a poster to the Forum, like anyone
> > else.
> >
> > I will not, however, approve further postings accusing me of
> > censorship from posters who have simply not bothered to check (or have
> > not noticed) that their postings have appeared. This entire
> > "censorship" thread has already cost the Forum a number of long-term
> > members who have quit the list because they do not have the time for
> > these off-topic exchanges. If you wish to inquire about a posting,
> > send me an email. The Forum's bandwidth is not intended for this sort
> > of thing.
> >
> > Stevan Harnad
> >
> >> Sally Morris
> >> Consultant, Morris Associates (Publishing Consultancy)
> >> South House, The Street
> >> Clapham, Worthing, West Sussex BN13 3UU, UK
> >> Tel: +44(0)1903 871286
> >> Fax: +44(0)8701 202806
> >>
> >> Email: sally_at_morris-assocs.demon.co.uk
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> From: American Scientist Open Access Forum
> >> [mailto:AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG]
O=
> n
> >> Behalf Of Subbiah Arunachalam
> >> Sent: 06 October 2008 04:47
> >> To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
> >> Subject: Re: Jean-Claude Gu=E9don is wrong, and so is Zinath Rehana
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would say the same thing as Alma Swan and Barbara Kirsop, but being
=
> a
> >> native speakers of English, they have said it far more effectively
tha=
> n
> >> I
> >> could.
> >>
> >> Stevan, you are doing a great job. Do not get distracted from your
pat=
> h
> >> because of a few detractors. Your postings are very educative and we
i=
> n
> > the
> >> developing world are greatly indebted to you for your tireless efforts
> >> to
> >> democratise knowledge and open up the flow of information.
> >>
> >> Arun
> >> [Subbiah Arunachalam]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Ept <ept_at_BIOSTRAT.DEMON.CO.UK>
> >> To: AMERICAN-SCIENTIST-OPEN-ACCESS-FORUM_at_LISTSERVER.SIGMAXI.ORG
> >> Sent: Friday, 3 October, 2008 18:17:30
> >> Subject: Re: Jean-Claude Gu=E9don is wrong, and so is Zinath Rehana
> >>
> >> Surely all readers of this List will be grateful to the moderator for
> >> sparing us this objectionable posting and I subscribe absolutely to
th=
> e
> >> sentiments so well expressed by Alma Swan. The role of a Moderator is
=
> no
> >> easy path to follow and surely leads to turbulence within this highly
> > vocal
> >> and dedicated community, each with their different backgrounds and own
> >> professional agendas. But as a person working in 'development', I for
> >> one
> >> am grateful to Stevan for his frequent reiteration of the basic
points=
> ,
> >> as
> > I
> >> am sure are newcomers to the List. As a prime mover in the
evolutionar=
> y
> >> process towards free access to essential research, his tireless
effort=
> s
> > are
> >> well appreciated by the information-starved world.
> >>
> >> Barbara Kirsop
> >>
> >> Electronic Publishing Trust for Development
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> Jean-Claude Guédon
> Université de Montréal
Received on Tue Oct 07 2008 - 18:23:19 BST